criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeplyThe primary reason #bluesky will never be decentralized is because the resource requirements are way too high. Yes, you can host a #PDS (personal data server) if you like, and that will provide you control of your own personal data. However, you're still dependant on someone else to host a relay, in order for your PDS to become part of the network. Hosting a relay seems to need upwards of 3 TB of SSD storage, and a ton of memory. And once you get that done, you need to host an app view, in order to make use of all of the data on the relay. While that's not quite ready for primetime yet, when it is, it ain't gonna be cheap. Based on what I can understand, an app view needs to index all data on the bluesky network, in realtime. This is the kind of architecture that only our VC funded #capitalist big tech masters could actually afford to deploy. So if, when you say "decentralized", you mean that Google, Microsoft, and Apple could each afford to run a shard of the network, sure it's decentralized. But if you mean that Joe and her homelab could run any useful portion of the network, it is in no way decentralized, and never will be. Even if compute prices come down to the point where small organizations could afford to deploy this sort of thing, you've still got the logistical nightmare that the relay hosts all of the data. From everyone. NAZI's, pedophiles, if you run a relay, all of that data is going to be passing through your server. Content labels and blocklists mean you might never see it, but if you run a bluesky relay, it still exists.
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeplyFor some comparison, my single-user #iceshrimp instance is currently using about 3 gigs of ram, and 2 gigs or so of SSD. And that's huge! I have compute to throw at it, so I joined all of the large relays, I follow several hundred people, and I turned all of the configuration nobs as hard as I could to optimize for speed, rather than limiting resources. If you want to host yourself a home on the #fediverse, your resource usage is going to be significantly less than mine. But unlike with #bluesky, you'll be controlling all of the infrastructure you need.
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeply@fastfinge Is there still a risk of criminal material making its way through your server with Mastodon/Iceshrimp too? While I don't really care about decentralisation, this is intended as an honestly curious question rather than any type of dismissive one.
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeply@jscholes Yes, but for that data to hit your server, you'd have to be following the person who posted it. So the odds are much higher that you either wanted it, are willing to risk it, or will at least find out about it. If you're running a bluesky relay, it gets everything anyone anywhere ever posts. Doesn't matter if you follow or interact with them or not.
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeply@fastfinge Makes sense. I can think of some attack vectors there, mostly related to account takeover, but this is a good distinction.
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeply@jscholes Yes, it was a huge problem for Lemmy, with people taking over accounts and communities and posting child porn, specifically to discredit the software. rblind.com doesn't host external images for that reason. However, it was obvious exactly what was happening, and it could be cleaned up fairly easily.
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeply@fastfinge That'll get interesting once law enforcers pay a bit more attention. I'd think even those who are lax about say hate speech or even outright Nazi stuff are often a bit less fun to deal with once it's about csam.
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeply@project1enigma I suspect that some kind of CSAM scanning will get built into the relays. But of course, that means even more resources are required, in order to scan all images in Realtime.
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeply@fastfinge And the thing must support true deletion at all. Else it takes just one item that gets missed at ingress scanning and you're lost as "relay" operator.
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeply@fastfinge All true for those who wish to host, but some of us just want a social network with mass adoption to get a variety of info. I'm not saying Bluesky is the one, but there's a part of me who misses 2010 Twitter and the vibe it brought. I'm sure like many things, it'll work for awhile, then something will make it less desirable. Just like Clubhouse, Reddit, and others before it.
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeply@Jage But on Mastodon and the fediverse, you have hundreds of servers to choose from. If someone doesn't like you or want to provide you an account, you can go elsewhere. With Bluesky, you're only ever likely to have a choice of one or two places you can go, because the expenses are so high. And those places will all be run by large corporations, with all of the attendant problems (advertising, selling your data, etc.).
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeply@fastfinge Yes, you write this like most people care. Also, you use Discord which is centralized, perhaps Whatsapp, Slack, etc. There's no perfect solution. Unlike others, I'm also not here to dog anyone who is going to stick to just Mastodon either. I want them all to be the best version they can be. Except for X, which can just fuck off at this point :)
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeply@Jage Yes, but I'd like to not use them. My issue with Bluesky is that it's pretending to be decentralized in the same way Mastodon is, when that's just not true. And I suspect a lot of people are going to get a nasty surprise when the corporations eventually sell out Bluesky for a buck. At least Discord isn't advertising itself as decentralized, or pretending that that sort of thing could never happen.
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeply@fastfinge OK I guess I didn't see that when I signed up, all I saw is their promise to not use data for AI training and to be open with their API's.
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeply@Jage They talk a lot about AtProto and how decentralized they are. And Twitter promised to be open with the API too, remember? That sure didn't last. Yet Bluesky has some of the same people involved with it (like Jack) as Twitter did. And they'll be just as willing and able to sell everyone out at some future date.
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeply@Jage Personally I'd rather try to build a home and identity on something that can't be ripped out from under me like Twitter was. Moving is difficult, annoying work. Not just because you need decent apps for the new thing, but because it can take years to figure out what the new thing even is, and longer for everyone you care about to go there.
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeply@fastfinge As I pointed out to someone the other day: I got 13 years of mostly positive community enjoyment out of Twitter before it came useless to me. That's a pretty good run for any product.
Most people aren't thinking 13 years down the line. But if Bluesky can deliver over a decade of value before it goes to shit, that will likewise be a good run.
If people are happy to stay in one place because they like it there, more power to them. But social media involves people, so it's unavoidably migratory. The choice about where to make your camp is somewhat taken out of your hands, unless your happy sleeping alone, with a very specific set of bedfellows, or shouting at everyone through a loud hailer over a bridge.
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeply@jscholes@Jage I will be surprised if Bluesky can last even ten years. The fediverse, though, will probably just plug along literally for ever. In the same way that IRC does; nobody uses it, but it all still exists. But unlike IRC, ActivityPub is flexible enough to modernize. So I doubt it'll ever have the hypergrowth that Bluesky has. But every year, a few thousand more will join. And it'll slowly eat everything else, in the same way that HTTP ate pretty much everything.
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeply@fastfinge I think it's good for people to understand the differences and then choose accordingly. I'm going to put a bookmark in whatever is popular to reach the most people.
criticism of bluesky as I come to understand it more deeply@Jage Agreed. And that's why I dislike bluesky. They're using the word decentralized in ways that I believe are deceptive, and make it difficult for people to understand just how bluesky and the fediverse are different.
