User avatar
Kieran L @klittle667@tweesecake.social
7mo
There's currently an issue with Sky Q's voice guidance feature that appears as if its server side. Which is what happens when you rely on cloud services for your TTS. Every day, a HD homerun + channels DVR looks more and more appealing. Irritatingly our sky contract now runs until Feb 2027 so it's pointless getting someone out to look at our ariel.
2
2
0
0
User avatar
Andrew Hodgson @andrew@hodgson.io
7mo
@klittle667 None of the apps that use the Homerun support audio description in the UK. I actually have an HD Homerun here which is useless because of this. Really anoying as the apps work really well otherwise.
1
0
0
0
User avatar
Kieran L @klittle667@tweesecake.social
7mo
@andrew That's very frustrating. Is there actually any technical reason for this? Or is it just stupidity. I could have sworn @fastfinge said AD worked over there.
3
0
0
0
User avatar
James Scholes @jscholes@dragonscave.space
7mo
@klittle667 In the UK, AD for terrestrial is mixed by the receiver. So even if an app supports multiple audio tracks, you'll be able to choose to listen to the program or the AD but not both.

It works in Canada because they mix their AD at the source. @andrew @fastfinge
2
0
0
0
User avatar
🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
7mo
@jscholes @andrew @klittle667 This should be pretty easy to fix with Describe Align: github.com/julbean/describealign
2
0
0
0
User avatar
Andrew Hodgson @andrew@hodgson.io
7mo
@fastfinge @jscholes @klittle667 IIRC the Channels PVR records MP4 files with 2 streams in the file, using an MP4 media player I could switch between the streams. Not sure if this program would be able to separate the streams or whether we would have to somehow get the AD into a separate file. Even then we can't just watch the program after recording it via the Channels apps.
1
0
0
0
User avatar
🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
7mo
@andrew @jscholes @klittle667 You'd have to write a script to make a copy of the show, flip the track order, then have describe align align the two files.
1
0
0
0
User avatar
Kieran L @klittle667@tweesecake.social
7mo
@fastfinge Thanks for all the info guys. Glad I didn't waste the money on either channels and / or a homerun. Sutch a shame as channels had quite a few features I wanted to take advantage of. Guess I'll either keep paying sky a ridiculous amount of money a month until they get rid of satellite services all together, buy a new TV that can record to a USB HD, or give up the idea of recording all together. @andrew @jscholes
1
0
0
0
User avatar
James Scholes @jscholes@dragonscave.space
7mo
@klittle667 What do you record that is both not available on a streaming service with AD, and would be available without Sky? @fastfinge @andrew
1
0
0
0
User avatar
Kieran L @klittle667@tweesecake.social
7mo
@jscholes Probably not a lot, but I like having things in one place. I find it a pain having to keep switching between apps. I know apple tried to make this a bit better, and I think google did as well, but it's never going to be as perfect as a DVR. Especially if I've recorded films that I'll get around to eventually, which will expire at some point, and also if broadcasters edit out parts of a show, like what happened with have I got news for you the other week. @fastfinge @andrew
1
0
0
0
User avatar
Andrew Hodgson @andrew@hodgson.io
7mo
@klittle667 @jscholes @fastfinge I've gone the catchup route here myself but its not the best experience with all the different apps required and knowing where AD is available or not. The PVR experience made this all so much easier.
1
0
0
0
User avatar
James Scholes @jscholes@dragonscave.space
7mo
@andrew @klittle667 @fastfinge It's hard for me to judge; I don't watch a lot of television and the option of receiver plus DVR isn't open to me anyway. But sitting or skipping through the ads in a recording would irritate me if there isn't a software solution by now that gets rid of them.
1
0
0
0
User avatar
Kieran L @klittle667@tweesecake.social
7mo
@jscholes @andrew @fastfinge Channels does remove the ads, apparently
1
0
0
0
User avatar
🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
7mo
@klittle667 @jscholes @andrew It marks the ads as chapters in the metadata, and then has a setting that allows you to auto-skip chapters marked as ads. Because it only gets it right about 95 percent of the time.
2
0
0
0
User avatar
Andrew Hodgson @andrew@hodgson.io
7mo
@fastfinge @klittle667 @jscholes Which you can stream live shows with audio description without using an aerial.
1
0
0
0
User avatar
🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
7mo
@andrew @jscholes @klittle667 So looking into this a bit more, it looks like ffmpeg can just do everything you want itself with amix and amerge. ffmpeg.org/ffmpeg-filters.html#amerge

So use ckucoo to intercept Channel's call to commskip so you'll know when the recording is done, and run ffmpeg to modify the output recording to have audio from both audio streams mixed together. github.com/Channels-DVR-Goodies/cuckoo

Sadly I can't actually do this myself as I'm not in the UK, so I couldn't test it. But once someone does, the process could be easily documented.
1
0
0
0
User avatar
🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
7mo
@jscholes @andrew @klittle667 Also, the idea that he'd have to make huge modifications to the player is nonsense. Channels DVR already includes ffmpeg. It already can do live transcoding of streams. Literally all he has to do is create a thing in the advanced preferences to enable mixing audio description and TV audio together, then let ffmpeg handle it all.
1
0
0
0
User avatar
James Scholes @jscholes@dragonscave.space
7mo
@fastfinge @andrew @klittle667 My claim was that it would be a lot of work to truly mix in the audio description including ducking, the parameters for which are embedded in the TV stream packets. Obviously it would be less work to just play two audio tracks simultaneously, but that's only a partial solution that can result in the audio description being difficult to hear and wouldn't recreate the experience obtained from actual TV reception equipment.

so I stick by what I said and don't think it's nonsense.
2
0
0
0
User avatar
🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
7mo
@jscholes @andrew @klittle667 Wait what? The TV Stream packets themselves include parameters for ducking? Why! I assumed TV receivers got to choose how that would work, either by using some kind of autoducking, or just playing the default track at a constant (slightly lower) volume and the AD track at a higher volume. That's what I was assuming you'd do with ffmpeg; it does allow basic modifications of track volumes.
0
0
0
0
User avatar
🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
7mo
@jscholes @andrew @klittle667 I am utterly and completely baffled. If I'm not allowed to control the mix levels myself, what on earth is the point of not just mixing at source? This has all the disadvantages of both approaches.
1
0
0
0
User avatar
James Scholes @jscholes@dragonscave.space
7mo
@fastfinge @andrew @klittle667 Some equipment does include the ability to control the program and AD volumes separately, but yes that data is embedded in the stream and needs to be reasonably respected for receivers to be certified. In some cases it's used (or some would say abused) to completely mute and replace the original program audio, for example for described sporting events.
1
0
0
0
User avatar
🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
7mo
@jscholes @andrew @klittle667 I...I...hate everything about that system. No really, everything. Does the standard also require that you play back all audio in mono because of years-old limitations having to do with the SAP on analogue TV? That's the only way I can think of to make that worse.
1
0
0
0
User avatar
James Scholes @jscholes@dragonscave.space
7mo
@fastfinge @andrew @klittle667 No, that's actually one thing this system helps to avoid in most cases because the original program audio is used in the dynamic mix. On cable and satellite TV, the audio description is mixed at source which comes with its own set of problems, like Blind consumers being given lower bit rate program audio because the available bandwidth for multiple audio tracks is insufficient.
1
0
0
0
User avatar
🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
7mo
@jscholes @andrew @klittle667 But in exchange, it means you can't just use the audio description that already exists when you're airing shows from the US and Canada, because we don't master our AD that way. It also explains to me why, when Canadian TV channels import Audio Description from the UK, the mix is an utter and total mess. I thought you guys were just really bad at that. One UK show I watch, for example, has all program audio on the left channel, and all audio description on the right channel. It's the worst of all possible worlds!
1
0
0
0
User avatar
James Scholes @jscholes@dragonscave.space
7mo
@fastfinge @andrew @klittle667 That particular example sounds like it could've been caused by a quirk of the custom delivery format for audio description that the UK has adopted. It was designed by the BBC, and has audio description in one channel with the control signals for things like ducking in the other. Maybe someone didn't have a parcer for that data and just thought that was how AD was supposed to be presented?

Meanwhile, just to make things worse, one of the most prolific producers of audio description tracks in the UK has a propensity for producing overly bassy audio. So just playing it louder than the program and hoping for the best is a less than optimal strategy.
2
0
1
0
User avatar
James Scholes @jscholes@dragonscave.space
7mo
@fastfinge Anyway, here is more detail if you want it for some reason:

dragonscave.space/@jscholes/111789184727533040

@andrew @klittle667
0
0
0
0
User avatar
🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
7mo
@jscholes @andrew @klittle667 So in other words, in order to even know what the overly complicated standard is, you have to pay for the documentation. And then you actually have to implement the thing. And then, of course, the fact that there is no public open-source reference implementation means that everyone does it slightly differently, so if you want to build your own equipment to work with AD tracks, you have to account for every possible way the documentation could ever be interpreted by anyone, along with some impossible ones. And absolutely none of this infrastructure could be reused to offer multilingual dubs of programs in different audio streams. Whereas in Canada described audio is effectively just another language; you will sometimes encounter a program with four different audio streams: English, English AD, French, and French AD. And here I thought the UK was better at this than North America.
1
0
0
0
User avatar
James Scholes @jscholes@dragonscave.space
7mo
@fastfinge @andrew @klittle667 As a general rule, the UK doesn't do multiple languages on TV. In the rare event of content being aired that wasn't originally in English, they'll either broadcast the English dub with no option to switch to the original or just add subtitles.
2
0
0
0
User avatar
James Scholes @jscholes@dragonscave.space
7mo
@fastfinge @andrew @klittle667 Oh and if you speak Welsh, Irish, Scottish Gaelic, Punjabi, etc. and want to watch programs in those languages, it's off to the special language-specific channels with you.
1
0
0
0
User avatar
🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
7mo
@jscholes @andrew @klittle667 Oh! Do they do the deeply silly thing that our French channels sometimes do here? Where they air the French dub of the movie, but mess up and put the English version of the movie with Audio Description on the second stream?
1
0
0
0
User avatar
James Scholes @jscholes@dragonscave.space
7mo
@fastfinge @andrew @klittle667 If a movie was broadcast in the original French, it would either not have AD on account of blind people being too uneducated to appreciate arthouse cinema, or the describer would badly read the subtitles throughout.
1
0
1
0
User avatar
🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
7mo
@jscholes @andrew @klittle667 My favourite was a documentary I watched where whenever someone was speaking a different language, the describer would announce "Subtitles appear." and then...not read them! Gee, thanks.
1
0
1
0
User avatar
Kieran L @klittle667@tweesecake.social
7mo
@fastfinge TO be fair I think I've had that on netflix. @jscholes @andrew
3
0
0
0
User avatar
Andrew Hodgson @andrew@hodgson.io
7mo
@klittle667 @fastfinge @jscholes I'm hoping all this goes away when we get Freely or whatever IPTV system they decide to implement. This weird audio description was as I said over engineered back in the early 00s when they did a bunch of research with a load of older blind folks. The original system used a special receiver with separate audio outputs for the audio description but noone got one of those.
0
0
0
0
User avatar
Andrew Hodgson @andrew@hodgson.io
7mo
@klittle667 @fastfinge @jscholes We were in a silly situation where the AD content was being broadcasted but noone in the UK had a capable receiver for at least 2 years. The Netgem Freeview boxes were some of the first that properly implemented this back in around 2004-2005. Offcom eventually mandated that TV sets sold here had to support this standard.
0
0
0
0
User avatar
Andrew Hodgson @andrew@hodgson.io
7mo
@klittle667 @fastfinge @jscholes Lastly if anyone wants my Homerun receiver in the UK I'll send it to you as its now taking up space.
0
0
0
0
User avatar
🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
7mo
@jscholes @andrew @klittle667 We do it rarely. It's mostly for live stuff like political debates or ceremonies or whatever. Sports, in one case. We also have language-specific channels. But at a political debate, for example, people might be frequently switching between French and English.
0
0
0
0