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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
2d
So because I have gone temporarily off my rocker, I'm working on an client using 10 and WPF, with artalk-xmpp for XMPP, libsignal for , and prism for screen reader output where needed. I'm only an evening into it, and I can already tell that OMEMO is going to be the source of complicated, inexplicable, and unreproducible bug reports for decades to come. It's still not as overcomplicated as , though.
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
2d
OMG what am I even doing This is a huge project it's going to need Jingle and that needs WebRTC and then file transfers and voice messages and oh also localization and sounds and hotkeys and settings and multi-account support and Oh God. even with AI this will take fifteen years why did I get out of bed today and choose this for myself
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Only 3 Easy Payments of $19.95 @feld@friedcheese.us
2d
@fastfinge there's always Delta Chat which solved almost all of these problems already :)
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
2d
@feld I dropped Jami and signal from my life for the same reason. “Just use the official clients” is not an open protocol. Not even if the client and server are open source.
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Only 3 Easy Payments of $19.95 @feld@friedcheese.us
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@fastfinge you're completely wrong we have third party clients and more coming all the time

github.com/trufae/parla

lambadalambda.github.io/estuary/

Unreleased tui client by @jae
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1d
@feld @jae Nope. These are just running deltachat-core or libdeltachat, from what I can tell. If I want a library in C#, there is none. If I want to write my own library in C#, without depending on deltachat-core, I can't. There's no list of RFCs I can look at, nothing like xeps or IRCV3 caps, etc. It's just "use our library".
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Only 3 Easy Payments of $19.95 @feld@friedcheese.us
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@fastfinge @jae there is no "library" to write. It's PGP emails and SMTP/IMAP. Go ahead and do it yourself, there's nothing proprietary being implemented. It's just emails.

Name a feature that you think is some secret proprietary thing
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
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@feld @jae It's not, though. Deltachat does weird shit with email headers to anonymize everything. I couldn't just read a message from deltachat in my regular email client. And I have no idea how they're doing federation and key exchange and things. But it's all based on weird links that require deltachat's domains and servers to exist and be running. I can't just type an email in the chat client and send a deltachat message.
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Only 3 Easy Payments of $19.95 @feld@friedcheese.us
1d
@fastfinge @jae
key exchange
It's Autocrypt, there's an RFC for it


Mime headers being encrypted? There's an RFC for it


The subject header being changed to [...] is a client / chatmail server implementation detail unnecessary

The Date header being smeared +- a few days is a client implementation detail too

None of that is required

All you needed to do to read the message in your email client is decrypt it. There are users reading messages in Thunderbird/Mutt/Proton Mail
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
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@feld @jae Interesting that everyone uses libdeltachat or deltaachat-core, then. There is no ecosystem of standards compliant implimentations. And seemingly no clear idea what that would even mean to deltachat.
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Only 3 Easy Payments of $19.95 @feld@friedcheese.us
1d
@fastfinge @jae because deltachat-core is a nice implementation of the core protocols in a simple Rust package and presents a clean JSON-RPC API for you to build anything you want on top of it. And none of that has anything to do with accessibility anyway, that's all in the UI. So as long as you have a UI you can control, you're fine
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1d
@feld @jae That's what we thought with Twitter and Reddit. Then they discontinued the API's. Those are just two recent examples of something that has happened dozens of times in the last 25 years. Slack discontinuing IRC is another. If I depend on an API that could be taken away at any moment, I have nothing. If there are no competing and interoperable implementations of the standard, you're just at the whims of the owner of the one true version.
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ArcaneChat @arcanechat@fosstodon.org
1d
@fastfinge you are comparing a web API of a central server to a local API of a library

which is completely wrong, for your information, ArcaneChat uses its own core that is a fork of the official chatmail core with some modifications and additions

you can do the same and of course you could implement a chatmail core in C# if you wanted to but it is a lot of useless uninteresting work reinventing the wheel while you didn't deliver anything useful to the users

@feld @jae
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1d
@arcanechat @feld @jae And what happens when the local library is discontinued in order to force everyone onto the official clients? From what I can tell no other viable library exists. I never build on an app or library controlled by the same organization that controls the protocol for that reason.
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ArcaneChat @arcanechat@fosstodon.org
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@fastfinge for that first the whole client needs to become proprietary, and as said you can always fork it, as we are already doing, at that point then the community can keep developing the chatmail core

it will only mean a different group of people continuing the project, people don't last forever anyway so this is something that has to happen one way or another

@feld @jae
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1d
@arcanechat @feld @jae But when deltachat includes proprietary features your fork is screwed because the protocol won’t allow capability negotiation. So deltachat still effectively controls you.
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ArcaneChat @arcanechat@fosstodon.org
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@fastfinge my friend, this can and is done all the same in xmpp

can your lil xmpp client communicate with WhatsApp or all the many custom proprietary xmpp platforms out there???

if Delta Chat does some "proprietary"-something at that point they will likely even turn off federation, I would not care to be compatible with them at that point, and the current federation of chatmail servers will continue to work all the same by voluntaries

@feld @jae
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1d
@arcanechat @feld @jae Watsapp is not and doesn’t claim to be xmpp compatible. So who cares what they do? I don’t use them.
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