Note by @fastfinge

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

There has to be a better system than windows and tabs for doing work on a computer. I don't know what it is, but there has to be something. I always end up with fifteen windows with 30 tabs each over two or three virtual desktops, and then can't find anything. Maybe the bad idea wasn't AI; maybe the bad idea was multi-tasking operating systems. Wouldn't life be better if all of our computers were single-user and single-threaded? No more losing windows and tabs! No more background notifications interrupting us every seven seconds! Just sit down, start a task, finish the task, then do something else. The human brain can only effectively do one task at a time. So we should force our computers to work the same way.

Cleverson @clv1@mementomori.social

@fastfinge That's it; MSDOS rocked!

Elijah Massey @emassey0135@caneandable.social

@fastfinge @alexchapman I disagree. On mobile it is often very annoying having no multi-tasking, because it makes referring to data from multiple applications at once harder (like comparing activity between different banking apps), as well as moving data from one application to another, like doing research from a book and writing an essay in another document. Especially since on mobile, focus is not maintained between apps, so if you have a webpage or a book open and switch to something else, you have to find your place again after switching back. I think there could be something better than windows and tabs (I agree Emacs buffers are better), but getting rid of multi-tasking is not the solution.

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@emassey0135 @alexchapman Sure it is. Take notes in Braille while in your first app, then when you have the notes you need, move to the second app. There's never any reason anyone needs any more than a single app open at one time.

Elijah Massey @emassey0135@caneandable.social

@fastfinge @alexchapman But taking notes in Braille is effectively just like having another device. I do often use Braille Access on iOS for exactly what you describe, but that is essentially opening another app on top of your current one and then dismissing it, so it is a form of multi-tasking. And if taking notes in Braille is like using a second device, then other common things people do with multi-tasking could be done with multiple computers too. But then why not just do everything on the same computer and save the desk space when computers are capable of that? Also, there is utility in notifications that you couldn't get with this single-tasking model, except by checking your email and messages very often, which is very inconvenient and is way more distracting than notifications.

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@emassey0135 @alexchapman Notifications are way too distracting. They've also poisoned society with the idea that everyone should always be available, at all times. If we had no notifications, everyone would just check email and social media once a day. Life would be much better all around! There is literally nothing that happens on the internet that you need to know about instantly. It can all wait 24-48 hours.

Alex Chapman @alexchapman@vee.seedy.cc

@fastfinge @emassey0135 Unless a server goes pew pew, that can't wait 24 or 48 hours, or if a friend or family member is sick, that certainly can't wait that long. There are two examples of where notifications are actually useful.

Elijah Massey @emassey0135@caneandable.social

@alexchapman @fastfinge Also for package deliveries; if you are expecting an item to be delivered soon, and are very excited about it or worried about thieves potentially stealing it, notifications decrease your anxiety because you don't have to keep checking delivery status and you can do whatever you are doing without thinking about the delivery. In addition, when you are texting a friend and you have different schedules or are doing things that vary where how busy you are varies a lot, you can just send a message and do something else, and not have to check if the other person responded. This enables conversations more frequent than every 24-48 hours, but that do not take up large contiguous blocks of time like phone calls.

Andre Louis @FreakyFwoof@universeodon.com

@emassey0135 @alexchapman @fastfinge I require music while I work. If multitasking wasn't a thing, I couldn't have foobar do that through my headphones while working or reading, lessening my enjoyment.

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@FreakyFwoof @emassey0135 @alexchapman The radio would still exist, though.

Andre Louis @FreakyFwoof@universeodon.com

@fastfinge @emassey0135 @alexchapman So now I have to have a confluence of wires and headphone splitters for somethign I can already do now?
Also, screen-readers. We did manage this in DOS with TSR (terminate and stay resident) but honestly, going back to that these days? Folly.

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@FreakyFwoof @emassey0135 @alexchapman You probably already have a mixer with a bunch of devices on it. Heck, even I do and I’m not an audio guy. Because having a single device playing multiple audio streams kind of sucks. Multiple devices and a mixer makes adjusting the volume of each thing, with actual physical mobs and sliders, way easier.

Andre Louis @FreakyFwoof@universeodon.com

@fastfinge @emassey0135 @alexchapman Until you're in a hotel or on a train working between home and remote and still need music to play. That only solves it for me, not for run of the mill people that also like their music, and right now can play it in-browser, in their media player of choice, etc.

Of course this will never happen now anyway unless you want to go live in DOSBox but hey.

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@FreakyFwoof @emassey0135 @alexchapman You could argue that if people instead had to engage with the world around them while traveling, all of society would be better off. And my point isn’t so much that we can actually do this. Just that the things like notification spam and the 24 hour workday are already destroying humanity. The effect of things like AI and crypto are pretty much zero in comparison. If we could be saved it’d require a lot more than banning some random technology as a scapegoat. It’d take a complete rethink of how computers and phones work.

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@emassey0135 @alexchapman But phoning friends and actually talking to them is far better for your mental health.

Matt Campbell @matt@toot.cafe

@fastfinge Maybe voice conversations with friends are better for some people's mental health, but not necessarily for everyone. And doing text chat with customer service is probably better for mental health on average.

Multitasking can have bad effects, but it also has its benefits, and it's never going away anyway.

@emassey0135 @alexchapman

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@matt @emassey0135 @alexchapman Customer support is bad for mental health because companies make it that way on purpose. If I’m going to sit on hold for 2 hours I’d rather just send an email.

aedan @aedan@serrebiradio.com

@fastfinge @matt @emassey0135 @alexchapman my bank just switched from a nice system with smart links for each type of help to call and not have to verify to a chat bot I hope stays accessible, phone systems can work with landlines and computers, now that virtual jobs are an easier thing more people should be able to work less for good money and save all mental health

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@aedan @matt @emassey0135 @alexchapman That’ll never happen in capitalism. Fewer people will just be expected to work harder for less money.

Alex Chapman @alexchapman@vee.seedy.cc

@fastfinge My mental health is perfectly fine even with notifications, I guess I’m one of those that doesn’t get any negative effects of it. @emassey0135

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@alexchapman @emassey0135 It probably has a lot to do with what you do for work.

Elijah Massey @emassey0135@caneandable.social

@fastfinge @alexchapman I do sometimes turn on do not disturb when I'm working on something I need to concentrate deeply on, and also when I'm in class I have it on. So that's a fair point.

Elijah Massey @emassey0135@caneandable.social

@fastfinge @alexchapman I agree that phone calls with friends are a good thing and that you are missing out if you only text. However, if I have to choose between a phone call every two weeks or every month, and that plus texting in between, I would definitely choose the latter. Or even if it was a shorter phone call every week or that plus texts I would choose the latter, because that is more contact than the phone call alone, and more opportunity for communication. Also for package notifications, do I really want my phone to ring loudly, and then have to take a call where I might be in class or walking around, just to hear that my package was delivered, which I could have found out in 5 seconds with a notification and no disturbance?

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@emassey0135 @alexchapman If you’re not at home, why do you need to know your package was delivered at all? You can’t do anything about it! If you are at home, they can ring the doorbell.

Elijah Massey @emassey0135@caneandable.social

@fastfinge @alexchapman If you're not at home, knowing that your package was delivered can cause you to check the porch when getting home or whereever packages are delivered, instead of going inside and then going back out again, or checking every single time needlessly. If you live in an apartment, often there is no doorbell, and packages may be delivered to the office and not your actual apartment, so you need to know to walk down to the office and get it. I suppose email would work for that though.

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@emassey0135 @alexchapman It would. If I don’t need to, or can’t, take action in the next 60 seconds, a notification is just spam.

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@alexchapman @emassey0135 Both of those should already be phone calls though.

Pratik Patel @ppatel@mstdn.social

@fastfinge Isn't that what the mobile experience is like pretty much all the time? yes. I know the edge cases and tabs and such. But, for the most part, we end up working on a single screen.

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@ppatel Accept that the notification spam is endless. And often your phone decides to do god knows what in the background, and now your battery is unexpectedly dead.

Pratik Patel @ppatel@mstdn.social

@fastfinge Putting the phone in do not disturb mode usually solves the notification problem.

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@ppatel Accept that it doesn't, because the rest of society expects you to answer every message you receive within five minutes. The problem with instant notifications is that they exist and are expected. So everyone has to have them on. Opting out isn't a choice your boss, co-workers, or family will permit.

Pratik Patel @ppatel@mstdn.social

@fastfinge Meh. I don't usually respond to messages when I have do not disturb on. Unless I am doing something related to the message/s coming in, they can wait.

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@ppatel Must be nice. Whereas I got an email from someone I have to deal with angry that he'd sent me a message at 2:37 AM, and it had been an hour with no answer from me. Yes, we were in the same timezone. And no, this is not a one-off; there are multiple people who do this sort of thing multiple times in my life. And based on the people I know, everyone else has people like this, too.

Pratik Patel @ppatel@mstdn.social

@fastfinge Oh I have people in my life like that. I won't deny it. But I've trained them to not expect replies from me immediately. 24-48 hours is what they get.

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@ppatel That works if you don't depend on them for income/livelyhood, I guess.

Pratik Patel @ppatel@mstdn.social

@fastfinge In some cases, I've relied on them for income in the past.

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@ppatel I doubt you could re-train them today, then. I'm increasingly convinced that the thing that'll destroy civilization isn't climate change, or AI. It's the expectation that everyone is always available at all times, and that we can all multi-task everything all at once. Notifications and multi-tasking are the sickness that's going to kill us all.

Terry @gtbray@allovertheplace.ca

@fastfinge @ppatel oh i so totally agree with this

Pratik Patel @ppatel@mstdn.social

@gtbray I completely agree. I'm in a position to not have to deal with people who need answers right away. Other than a few simple notifications, mine go to scheduled summaries. This way, I'm not tempted to respond to things. @fastfinge

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@ppatel @gtbray And yet, here you are. Responding to my messages almost instantly. Even though they're not in any way urgent, or even important. I mean, I'm doing the exact same thing! Because that's how social media works now. But I'm not convinced it's a good thing. This conversation would probably be more productive, less distracting, and easier on all of us as a series of emails over several days. But that's not how the world works now. And that's not how any of the tools are designed to function. So we just don't interact that way. Even if it would be better for everyone involved.

Pratik Patel @ppatel@mstdn.social

@fastfinge Ah, But I'm responding almost immediately because I happen to be free right now, not working on anything that requires focus. That won't be the case in about 15 minutes. @gtbray

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@ppatel @gtbray Sure, but is that the case for everyone else in the chain? Maybe, maybe not. The notification system doesn't care either way. And I bet we're all less thoughtful than we would be if we were conversing by email, or some other less real time medium. Because even Mastodon, the least exploitative of all possible social media, is not designed to promote thinking about replies. Speed first. When I send an email, I spend 15-30 minutes proofreading. When I post on social media, I'm lucky if I read it over more than once. Velocity is the only thing rewarded. Again, because of real time notifications and multi-tasking. And that leads to a lot of completely avoidable drama, conflict, and nonsense.

Daisy 🪺🔪📚 @greengaybles@sunny.garden

@fastfinge @ppatel @gtbray This is an interesting conversation. I'm fortunate to not have to worry about any of this as it pertains to employment, but I have had multiple friendships disintegrate due to my inability to maintain the expected pace of modern communication.

People want responses immediately because the option to receive them that way exists now, I think that's an inarguable fact. And they get upset/irritable/offended if you don't comply. I've been told that I'm not good at being a friend to anyone who isn't with me in person, that someone deserves better friendships in their life where better friendships meant quicker responses, etc.

But I'm not sure it's true that we have to act accordingly. I'll grant you that it might be when money is on the line, but in communication with friends and family, we teach people how to treat us and what to expect from us. I have most notifications turned off on my phone at this point and I check apps when I want to check them, and I turn on do not disturb at night, and I take time with my replies. Part of this is being a writer and caring about words, so even if it's a reply on a post, like this, I'm putting thought into it and proofreading it. Part of it is chronic illness and limited energy. That tends to mean that my conversations happen slowly, over days or weeks, and I feel guilt about that because I know it's not what most people want or expect. But it's what I can give.

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@greengaybles @ppatel @gtbray The other thing that happens, and I've watched it happening to others with struggles that sound similar to yours, is that folks who must converse slower just get left out. By the time you've read something, and are able to reply, 763 other replies have already been posted, the conversation has moved on, and you're now totally excluded through no fault of your own.

clew @clew@ecoevo.social

Now I’m looking for an interface option to turn off the response notifications in mastodon! No beeps don’t change the page icon nothing. Just show me the new stuff when it occurs to me to ask.

ETA: I don’t think there is one, reply notifications are assumed to be of top level interest.

If there was such a dampener, would it help if other people could see I was using it? So they didn’t feel I was ignoring them?

@fastfinge @ppatel @gtbray

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@clew @ppatel @gtbray Maybe? But thinking through the privacy implications would need doing. Maybe opt in? Like how could someone use that info against you? Publish unauthorized nudes of you maybe because they know you will react slower? I’m not sure.

Pratik Patel @ppatel@mstdn.social

@clew I'm pretty sure that option doesn't exist on the web at least. you can set notifications as you like on various apps. @fastfinge @gtbray

James Scholes @jscholes@dragonscave.space

@fastfinge @ppatel If I got fired for not responding to an email at 2:37AM, I think I'd be okay with that. Yes I know, incredibly privileged view. So much so in fact that my phone autocompleted privileged after only three letters.

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@jscholes @ppatel I'd agree if it was "get fired". But usually it's "Get yelled at. Get no promotion. Get put on a performence improvement plan. Don't get the raise. Get called not a team player." If companies would just fire people for that it'd be way easier to fight in court. But they don't.

Tara Owton @oasisfan@mastodon.social

@fastfinge @jscholes @ppatel How about suing them for unreasonable working conditions? I work freelance, and if one of my EFL students did that to me, they simply wouldn’t get an answer at 2.37 in the morning. Trouble is not enough people stand up to this crap.

miki @miki@dragonscave.space

@fastfinge One task often involves more than one application, though. Imagine having to close your editor to compile or having to close the web browser with docs open to actually write any code. Agree that windows are primarily a visual jnterface, and probably suboptimal for a keyboard plus screen reader combo.

Matt Campbell @matt@toot.cafe

@miki @fastfinge I wonder if any of the note-takers really got this right.

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@matt @miki I mean I'm sure I was more productive in class with my Braille 'n Speak than modern students are with a laptop. Because I was actually taking notes. Well, I was actually playing battle.bas via run.bns. But I could have been taking notes. And I was absolutely crushing battle.bas because the only thing distracting me was the teacher, and she was far easier to ignore than modern social media.

🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca

@miki I dunno, apps open and close so fast that it wouldn't really be a problem. As long as they save state to disc before closing, it wouldn't be an issue.

Devin Prater :blind: @pixelate@tweesecake.social

@fastfinge Introducing, Emacs! With its buffer system and list, you can interactively search through your buffers, windows, and never not be able to find something! Now, forgetting something is there, well that's another thing. :)

Martin @mcourcel@allovertheplace.ca

@pixelate @fastfinge Are you actually using Emacs? It's weird.

Devin Prater :blind: @pixelate@tweesecake.social

@mcourcel @fastfinge I do use it yes