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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
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completely blind computer geek, lover of science fiction and fantasy (especially LitRPG). I work in accessibility, but my opinions are my own, not that of my employer. Fandoms: Harry Potter, Discworld, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, Buffy, Dead Like Me, Glee, and I'll read fanfic of pretty much anything that crosses over with one of those.
keyoxide: aspe:keyoxide.org:PFAQDLXSBNO7MZRNPUMWWKQ7TQ
Location Ottawa
Birthday 1987-12-20
Pronouns he/him (EN)
xmpp fastfinge@im.interfree.ca
keyoxide aspe:keyoxide.org:PFAQDLXSBNO7MZRNPUMWWKQ7TQ
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@feld @anemone @mischievoustomato @wafflesies @arcanechat @jae Yes, probably. That's why I said I doubt it. And even if they did, we'd all block them just like the entire fediverse decided blocking threads was worth shooting ourselves directly in the face.
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@feld @anemone @mischievoustomato @wafflesies @arcanechat @jae Interesting. Maybe the EU gateway provider thing will force them to federate again. Though I doubt it.
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@anemone @feld @mischievoustomato @wafflesies @arcanechat @jae The only people I'm pretty sure are still using a proprietary version of XMPP are Nintendo, of all people. And that only because they posted jobs once or twice looking for folks with Jabber experience. But I'm not a gamer so I have no idea what they're doing with it.
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@wafflesies @anemone @feld @arcanechat @jae The trouble with The Signal Protocol is it doesn't federate. So you can never exchange messages with people who don't use your particular app and server infrastructures. The Signal Protocol is mostly useful from the perspective of library developers.
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@mischievoustomato @anemone @feld @wafflesies @arcanechat @jae I dunno, even APNS seems to have moved away from being based on XMPP. It was around 2012, back when apple had iChat and supported XMPP services in it. But once they moved to iMessage, APNS started using port 443, and I see no modern evidence whatever they're doing is XMPP.
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@mischievoustomato @anemone @feld @wafflesies @arcanechat @jae This is not at all correct. WhatsApp uses the Signal Protocol. No relation to XMPP. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_Protocol
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@wafflesies @feld @arcanechat @jae I think it’s signal not xmpp.
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@feld @arcanechat @jae Those all sound like intentionally promoting lock in to me. The long and short of it is: tomorrow deltachat could wake up and decide it doesn’t care about screen readers anymore. When they do, I’m locked out. That makes deltachat a danger to me and my community, and is just not possible to lock us out of xmpp in the same way, even if people wanted to. Until that changes, I have to treat deltachat the same way I treat any other hostile closed protocols: don’t depend on, promote, or trust it.
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@arcanechat @feld @jae Watsapp is not and doesn’t claim to be xmpp compatible. So who cares what they do? I don’t use them.
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@arcanechat @feld @jae Deltachat is just as much of a poison to openness as Bluesky and threads. All marketing and vibes to capture users.
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@arcanechat @feld @jae But when deltachat includes proprietary features your fork is screwed because the protocol won’t allow capability negotiation. So deltachat still effectively controls you.
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@arcanechat @feld @jae If deltachat doesn’t want people indipendantly authoring libraries that use its protocol it is not an open standard. End of story.
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@arcanechat @feld @jae And what happens when the local library is discontinued in order to force everyone onto the official clients? From what I can tell no other viable library exists. I never build on an app or library controlled by the same organization that controls the protocol for that reason.
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@martin I think I am, yes. Thanks!
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@feld @jae Heck, just last week I contributed a pull request to this, as I was using and testing it to figure out what the ecosystem is like for third party clients and bots on deltachat: github.com/Simon-Laux/hermes-deltachat-platform/pull/2
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@feld @jae I did. But I submit that that's not enough for someone to go off and develop their own chatmail client, and then expect it to just work with deltachat. Whereas I can (and have) developed my own IRCV3 clients and had them "just work" without reference to anyone else's implementation, and am currently (though I'm using one of many libraries) developing a client that I can expect to "just work" on XMPP. For features I can't or don't want to implement, I can communicate to other servers and clients that users of my client don't have those features, I can know if another client supports a particular feature and give my user a friendly error if not, and I can do it all based on a normal looking jabber ID without requiring enormous web URLs that depend on the continued existence of deltachat's domains and servers. And my accessibility needs don't depend on the decisions and good intentions of some other organization.

Honestly, I like the idea of deltachat. I don't like the massive electron app, and I don't like being dependant on deltachat as an organization to do the right thing for accessibility. So I won't build any important workflows or relationships around it, or be part of any community that requires it.
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@feld @jae I did not use it as an example. I used the fediverse, and the fep infrastructure, as an example. That's how things should work. The way both Mastodon and Deltachat do things are the anti-pattern here.
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@feld @jae Because none of the xeps it lists are obsolete, so you'll have to do that, anyway, just naturally as a side-effect of writing an xmpp client or server that other people will federate with and talk to. That list is just a useful resource.
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@feld @jae Yes, and that was because of exactly the same stupid thing I'm complaining that deltachat does. We let mastodon define the standard in code, and now we're all stuck with its crap. Hopefully, in time, Mastodon will be small enough that it has to be a good fediverse citizen and not just do whatever the hell it wants. I run an iceshrimp.net instance myself, I know all about Mastodon's nonsense.
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🇨🇦Samuel Proulx🇨🇦 @fastfinge@interfree.ca
1mo
@feld @jae You don't have to conform to XEP-0479. You can (and should) conform to the previous one. But you should also be working on the stuff in XEP-0479, because eventually it's going to not be experimental, so you should be thinking about how your client can be ready for that. Instead of having some random person make a configuration change, and surprise! The standard is now different in a way you didn't have like seven years to prep your code for.
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